Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Gyokuyoutama

Non-Magic CCGs

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Gyokuyoutama said:

The more I think about it, the more fascinating this Spawn/Alice deck is.  It may be the perfect card game deck in any card game.

 

The thing about it is that it has strong threats to play in the early game, midgame and endgame.  In the early game it just throws an aggro package at you which is as fast as anything else in the game.  In the midgame it uses high impact cards that will nearly always 2 for 1 if not 3 for 1 (without the use of evolution points in many cases) thus allowing them to continue the assault without falling behind in tempo or cards.  And after the midgame they have a one turn kill that punches through pretty much every defensive measure the game has to offer.

 

It really shows the value in that maxim: "there are wrong answers but there are no wrong threats."  You can certainly make a counter deck for the aggro portion, or the midgame trading, or the one turn kill.  But if you do that, you'll get beaten in the other two phases and lose anyway.  If you try to counter all three phases, you are highly likely to draw the answers for the wrong phase, and thus not really answer anything.

 

It turns out that there is one counter though: a deck which is almost identical but which has a better midgame aggro component and thus kills the main deck before they get to the one turn kill.  The way that things are developing, since there are no other possible counters, without nerfs the meta will become two decks that only differ by 1 or 2 cards.

And people say that YGO's metagame is bad.

 

That sounds really interesting though, even if I don't know too much about that game. Like coming from Standard to Vintage.

Edited by A 1970 Corvette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YGO's Sixth Editioning itself.

 

Well, it's not as drastic as Sixth Edition, but this is still a pretty big step. Probably still bigger than M15ing itself. Another functional errata for an "OP" card, but I don't know if Witch of the Black Forest is fast enough for any deck anymore.

Edited by A 1970 Corvette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a pretty representative decklist.  Some people run more of an early game and drop Alucard, some people run Phantom Cat instead of him, but it's all pretty similar.

 

Basic mechanics are like Hearthstone (and so somewhat like magic as well): you get 1 mana a turn, followers can't attack the turn you play them, you can choose to attack enemy followers or the enemy leader if they don't have a ward follower (i.e. the defender doesn't choose blocks).  Two major differences from Hearthstone is that you start at 20 life, and there is the evolve mechanic.  1st player gets 2 evolve points and can use 1 a turn starting turn 5, 2nd player gets 3 evolve points and can use 1 a turn starting turn 4.  Generally evolving gives a follower +2/+2 and give it rush (which allows it to attack the turn it comes into play, but not the enemy leader).  Some followers have additional abilities; the old standard was that if you get a non-conditional ability it would only get +1/+1 on evolve and if the ability was really good it wouldn't get pumped at all but that standard has went out the window since two expansions ago; there's plenty of followers with good abilities that still get +2/+2 on evolve, three of which are in this deck (Lyria, Feria and Spawn).

 

The key cards are Tove, Alice, Bare Knuckle Bodyguard, Baphomet and Spawn from the Abyss.  Tove is a 3/3 for 2 which is as good as it sounds.  He has the downside of not being able to attack if you don't play a neutral follower (basically the analogue to artifact creatures; can go in any deck), but this as actually more of an upside because they decided that he also gets rush if you play a neutral follower.  Thus you can play him turn 2 and go to face on turn 3, or you can play him later and then drop a neutral and take out one of their guys with Tove.  So he's both some aggresive power early and he also allows you to trade midgame without spending an evolution point, which is huge.

 

Alice is a 3/4 for 4, which are more than reasonable vanilla stats in this game, which gives all of your neutral followers in play and in your hand +1/+1.  This allows for some explosive turn 4 plays where, if you went first, you can get the opponent down to 6-9 life, which puts them in finishing range on turn 5, especially if you have another Alice.  It's quite notable that up until this point this type of mass pump in the game either was a spell, came down turn 6, or didn't pump defense (which is pretty huge since a lot of cheap removal is of the shock variety, and a lot of cheap mass removal is of the pyroclasm variety, so 3 defense can put followers out of reach).  Between Alice, Tove, and the other cheap neutral cards in the deck you can easily run over a deck for a turn 5 kill if they don't get the right answers.  What is especially notable is that Alice always drops on a turn beffore the opponent could evolve, regardless of whether you were going first or second, so even if they knew that you were going to pump all your neutral weenies the other player might not have been able to do much about it, due to summoning sickness.

 

Bare Knuckle Bodyguard is another 3/4 for 4, again perfectly fair vanilla stats, which kills an enemy follower with 3 or less defense.  Oh, and it does 2 damage to you if you have more than 10 life, as if that ever mattered.  This is a great removal and a good body all in one, and lets you trade turn 4 if you aren't steamrolling without spending an evolution point.  What's most notable about BKB is that the closest card before him was Priest of the Cudgel, another 3/4 for 4 that could get rid of enemy followers with 3 or less defense, but he only did his ability on evolve and only evolved as a 4/5.  If you do need to evolve BKB he evolves as a 5/6, allowing you to do a much better job at trading.  (Incidentally, Priest of the Cudgel has always been considered a pretty good card).

 

The most infamous card in the deck is Spawn of the Abyss.  It has ambush, which prevents it from being attacked or targeted until it attacks.  When it attacks, if it had ambush, it deals 6 damage to the enemy leader's face.  If you somehow kill it when it has ambush (say by the Wrath of God analogue or by using one of Havencraft's amulets which destroy a random follower), you still take 6 damage to the face.  If it's evolved, both of those go up to 8.  The most common one turn kill is to drop a spawn, and then next turn drop another spawn, evolve the new spawn to attack any ward the opponent has, or just whatever follower is around doing 8 damage to the opponents face, then send the old spawn to the opponent's face for 6 damage from his ability plus another 6 from his attack.  6+6+8 = 20, and you can't raise your life above 20 in this game.  This creates the agonizing scenario where you don't want to play followers, to avoid the 8 damage from the evolve, but if you don't have ward followers they just attack your face next turn.  You can get around this via the means I mentioned earlier (in which case you still take damage, thus setting yourself up for a kill in a later turn), but you have to get the timing perfect, while the Spawn player can be late a turn or to and still one turn kill you.  There is one decent counter in the game, Mutagenic bolt in runecraft which transforms every enemy follower into a 1/1 and thus neither targets nor triggers graveyard effects, but Runecraft has trouble with other parts of the deck (generally you'll take a bunch of hits in the aggro phase so that you probably can't afford to take 8 to the face, but you can't prevent that unless you have no followers on the board since they can play and evolve in the same turn, but if you aren't playing followers you're almost certainly dead from the aggro package in the deck).  Now, all of this might be manageable if they frequently failed to draw a Spawn, so that you didn't need to have your own answers so consistently, which leads us to :

 

Baphomet.  He's a 2/1 for 2 which tutors a follower with at least 5 attack.  If you scan through the deck you'll notice that the only follower in the deck with 5 attack is Spawn, so here he just straight up tutors for a spawn.  Worse, you can play Baphomet for 5 and he'll reduce the cost of the card you tutored by 3.  Thus they can play Baphomet turn 5, and play a spawn turn 6.  Now keep in mind that every mass destruction effect which can hit Baphomet costs 6....

 

You basically have two options to avoid the Spawn.  You can avoid having any followers turn 5, so they can't evolve and attack them turn 6, and make sure that you have your 6 cost answer on turn 6 (because if you don't, you're taking 16 to the face on turn 7), or you can do so much damage to the deck that they're either dead by turn 6, or are close enough to dead that they can't afford to spend turn 5 playing a 2/1.  The second strategy is more reliable, hence why the meta has become incredibly aggro (also, keep in mind that Alice and everything she pumps are neutral and can go in any deck), but the truth is that the deck that can pump through the aggro damage the best is also Bloodcraft.  Some decks drop spawn and replace him with phantom cat while focusing a bit more on the early game, a 5/5 for 6 that draws you two cards and deals 2 damage to the enemy for each neutral that you draw, and this seems to be the best way to punish spawn decks.  The phantom cat version is a little less reliable against non-blood decks, since you don't have the reliability of a spawn kill.  Thus if no changes are made the meta will stabilize to two decks: spawn blood, which is good against every non-bloodcraft deck, and phantom cat blood, which is good against bloodcraft decks.  When blood gets a bit too dominant more people will play phantom cat, which in turn will allow some people to try other classes  But when the other classes start winning games people will just play spawn blood again and thus the cycle continues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, A 1970 Corvette said:

YGO's Sixth Editioning itself.

 

Well, it's not as drastic as Sixth Edition, but this is still a pretty big step. Probably still bigger than M15ing itself. Another functional errata for an "OP" card, but I don't know if Witch of the Black Forest is fast enough for any deck anymore.

That + thing was something that Hecatomb did.  + or - before the number meant to add or subtract, + or - after a number might more than or less than.  Thus you could get statements like "when this abomination is size 3- it gets power +3." It worked there, but in Hecatomb due to the card layout text space was at an incredible premium for minion abilities.  It's also why the game had far more keywords in its base set than most card games did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Gyokuyoutama said:

That + thing was something that Hecatomb did.  + or - before the number meant to add or subtract, + or - after a number might more than or less than.  Thus you could get statements like "when this abomination is size 3- it gets power +3." It worked there, but in Hecatomb due to the card layout text space was at an incredible premium for minion abilities.  It's also why the game had far more keywords in its base set than most card games did.

Well, a lot of people complain about the text boxes for YGO cards being paragraphs so I think it's an overall good change. Especially since there really aren't too many material+ cards in the game anyway.

 

The biggest change in text is probably (Quick Effect). That's such a huge space saving from "During either players' turn, " and Konami has been putting so many more Quick Effects in YGO that it really was a long time coming. Honestly, I think what we really need is something to abbreviate "Once per turn, " as well. If someone could compile the most common phrases in YGO it'd probably be something like that.

 

The OCG/Asian version of YGO has numbered bullet points to separate effects on cards, I wonder if we'll ever get that.

Edited by A 1970 Corvette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't play a lot of GWENT, but even from my perspective it looks like the last update completely fucked up the game at a fundamental level.

 

Basically you have bronze, silver and gold cards.  There are restrictions on how many silver and gold cards you can have, and these are very important because there's no mana cost for cards so this prevents the most degenerate decks.  Additionally, gold cards were immune to most card effects.  In the last update they got rid of that mechanical property of gold cards; they now can be affected by anything as normal.

 

What's ridiculous about this is that the game was clearly designed around gold cards having this property.  For example, the mascot card Geralt was useful primarily because he was big and gold, meaning that once he was on the table it was hard to nullify him.  There are plenty of cards that have as much of a numerical threat, but they could be damaged, bounced, stolen, etc. making them far less of an actual threat.  You could even play Geralt and then play a board sweep, keeping your Geralt.  And the same sorts of things applied to every gold card.  On the flip side you can now pump your gold cards, which you couldn't previously, but in most cases this is not nearly as good as having immunity from opponent's effects.  If anything I think that having the ability to use your own abilities on gold cards is most likely to lead to a degenerate bounce or reanimate interaction, which previously could be avoided without needing special text.

 

There were even cards that had the effect of turning gold cards into silver cards.  What is the purpose of those cards now that gold doesn't really mean anything outside of card limits on deck construction and in the text of a few random abilities?

 

I'm trying to think of what a similar change would be in another game.  I guess something that gets to the heart of how much this changes basic assumptions about how cards work and how much it changes balance would be if they made it so in Magic lands and artifacts had summoning sickness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To give you a better idea of how this specifically affects the game, consider Unseen Elder.  He's a leader card, meaning that if you choose him as the leader for your deck you always get him in your opening hand, and so he's clearly meant to be built around.  What does he do?  He can kill three of your creatures to add their power to his own.  In GWENT all that matters is the total power of your force, so all that you actually gain in power when you play him is his 5 base strength.  Many grunt infantry type units with marginal abilities have strength of around 8, so that isn't very impressive.  What benefit do you then gain from this?  In the old days, the benefit was that all the strength is in Unseen Elder, who is gold and thus can't be targeted by most effects.  The grunts that you ate might have been killed off by various effects, but Unseen Elder won't be.

 

With the current rules you've basically done nothing but shoot yourself in the foot.  They can just scorch to kill all the units with the highest power, which will be your Unseen Elder and almost certainly nothing else.  Thus they not only get a huge swing in total strength, but they also 4 for 1'ed you and in GWENT card advantage is far more important than it usually is in card games.

 

By removing the natural ability for Gold cards to have immunity to most effects, they turn an interesting leader into something completely useless.  And that's just one small example among many.

Edited by Gyokuyoutama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently the new shadowverse leaders are going to appear as legendary drops in the new expansion, and it will be impossible to either craft them or buy them (with either real or in-game currency).

 

That seems like it was crafted as a way to optimally piss everyone off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shadowverse community seems to be of two minds in their anticipation for this new expansion.

 

Not because the expansion will introduce a rotation format which is needed to control degenerate decks, but which also will kill several classic archetypes from haven, forest and shadow.

 

No, it's that Cerebus is finally being added as a leader, but she's wearing shorts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The TCG of YGO is receiving art for Monster Reborn and Exodia that were previously censored.  Considering how long these cards have been censored, it's pretty crazy that we're finally getting the "true" artworks for them.

 

Hopefully this means that Konami is basically done caring about "religious connotations" with their cards. Now if only we could get them to calm down about boobs too, we might get Magi Magi ☆ Magician Gal some day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I had my worst game of Shadowverse ever.

 

Playing a Tenko's shrine combo deck.  Needless to say there's a lot of card draw in there to get to Tenko's shrine and I have three of them because the deck can only do about half of what it is capable of without a shrine.  Somehow I get down to 6 cards without drawing a single shrine.  This means that literally half the cards in my deck were now Tenko's shrines.  Nevertheless I'm able to get my opponent's life down, despite him playing a dragoncraft deck that's gaining an absurd amount of life.  Totaling it up I believe that he gained 23 life throughout the match (three dragon's nests, four sibyl triggers and one lindworm trigger).  But I still manage to get him down to 2 life on his turn, and I even have an amulet that will summon a storm bird for me to do the remaining 2.... but I only have one slot left on my board so when I play it it immediately gets exiled.

 

And then next turn he kills me.

Edited by Gyokuyoutama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of me worries it's going to take a long time before someone fixes the interaction with Paradicesmasher in YGOPro with other cards considering people see dice or coins and just assume they're "meme cards no one should care about".

 

I want my dice jar 3500 burn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three games in a row of bloodcraft vengeance.

 

Never draw a single vengeance enabler.

 

But I draw all three dark generals, which are trash in the deck without vengeance, every time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somehow in Shadowverse rotation has become wallet deck central while unlimited is where budget decks reign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gyokuyoutama said:

Somehow in Shadowverse rotation has become wallet deck central while unlimited is where budget decks reign.

I kinda wish all games were like that. Have the standard/rotating format be the "pay for preview" kind of format, reprint everything else to hell and back.

 

Probably wouldn't work out in the long run, financially. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, A 1970 Corvette said:

I kinda wish all games were like that. Have the standard/rotating format be the "pay for preview" kind of format, reprint everything else to hell and back.

 

Probably wouldn't work out in the long run, financially. 

The issue is two fold:

 

  1. New sets are putting "build around me" cards more and more into the legendary slot (analogous to mythic rare), where in previous sets they commonly appeared in the gold and silver slots (analogous to rare and uncommon).  This means that new rotation decks often need at least six legendaries (two sets of three) and sometimes up to 12 or 15.  In contrast there are plenty of good archetypes in unlimited that use golds as their key card (such as dimension shift or rhinoceroach, both of which would almost certainly be printed as legendaries today).  The only recent exception to this is the dominant Tenko's Shrine deck, Tenko's Shrine being only a gold, but even that deck has some essential legendary support cards (such as De La Fille and the absolutely ridculous Ceryneian Hind).  That's not to say that legendaries aren't commonly used in unlimited decks since they are and there are still wallet decks that have tons of legendaries, but it's easier to find a deck that only requires a few legendaries and over time it's a lot cheaper since you don't have to constantly get new legendaries.
  2. Cygames has recently started doing "mini-expansions" where after a month new cards are added to an expansion.  These cards are intended to shake up the rotation metagame so usually at least a third of them are essential for certain decks.  However, these mini-expansions consist entirely of golds and legendaries, meaning that you can't get most of the mini-expansion by just opening packs.  This means that even when you do get a good rotation deck going, you need to blow your vials on more crafting shortly afterwards anyway.  But these expansions are too small to offer cards for the various unlimited decks, so you can usually keep doing what you were doing there.
  3. Recent expansions have lacked support for many traditional archetypes (such as aggro sword, midrange forest, or practically anything involving blood other than vengeance).  You might get a card or two that could be useful, but it isn't enough across the rotation legal sets to build a functional deck.  There are also many cards that formed the foundation of an archetype and were never reprinted (such as the aforementioned rhinoceroach and dimension shift).  Thus the meta has less options from the start and makes it easier for two or three dominant archetypes to rise up without the possibility of a rogue counter deck to shake things up.  In contrast unlimited has so many options that if one thing takes over for too long people will find a counter to bring it down.  Things can get pretty degenerate (like that shadow deck that could start summoning zeus, basically a 5/10 with haste and deathtouch, on turn 5, and then summon him again up to 8 more times throughout the game), but somehow the overall meta is more reasonable.

 

EDIT: Up the irons

Edited by Gyokuyoutama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shadowverse has reached a point of complete degeneracy again.

 

Basically only two decks: The first is Tenko Haven, which uses Tenko's Shrine, an amulet which pumps out 2 damage every time you or one of your dudes gets healed.  This actually wasn't that great when they printed it, but now there are a ridiculous number of repeated heal effects together with lots of cycling to make sure that you get the shrine (and even if they have tech cards to blow it up, you just draw a second one).  It's not uncommon for a tenko deck to have 4 different effects that will heal every turn, meaning 8 damage being pumped out above and beyond what their followers are doing.  And on top of that they are healing themselves, making it harder to outrace them.

 

The second is midrange sword, but really it's "plop a bunch of guys down and go face" sword.  It's midrange in that instead of getting as many storm guys as possible (as they would in a true aggro deck), they use two guys which protect all of your followers from being damaged by spells and effects for one turn.  This protects them from the usual threat of overextending, i.e. having your force wiped out with a mass damage effect.  They also have Arthur, who is a bit later game, but summons four weenies from your deck with him just in case they actually did wipe your board.  Now honestly midrange sword could be countered by a strong defensive deck or by outright destroy effects and so should be being kept in check... except that their damage prevention effects makes it extremely good against Tenko, which relies on repeated damage from the shrine.

 

So the meta is now that Tenko dominates until it dominates too much at which point Sword becomes the number one deck.  Then eventually people start experimenting with anti-sword decks but they always lose to Tenko so then Tenko is back on top and so on.  A lot like the Mirroden meta where it was affinity and the midrange red deck that could beat affinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty amazing how in just two expansions Shadowverse's rotation format has went from "a breath of fresh air and a great way for new players to get started" to "an incredible stale meta that only veteran players can afford to play."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×